A couple of years ago, I reviewed Level Up: Advanced 5e from ENWorld Publishing. At the time, I said that it offers itself as an alternative not so much currently existing 5e, but whatever new version of 5e was coming down the pike from WotC. In the interim, we had the great OGL crisis of January 2023, leading to a slew of games from former 5e publishers that were explicitly set up as WotC alternatives. Many of these games--Daggerheart by Darrington Press, MCDM's currently untitled ttrpg, to take the two most prominent examples--went far afield from 5e, at least in terms of mechanics. But there was also Kobold Press's Tales of the Valiant, which was released to Kickstarter backers last week and like A5e is pitched as being compatible with 5e material. As a result, ToV and A5e are the two clearest choices for people who just want to be free of WotC without reorienting toward a different rules structure.
In addition, as Mike Shea of Sly Flourish has been pushing for some time now, because they are compatible with 5e, you can mine both of these sources for material for your (WotC-based) 5e game. I think it is worth pointing out that both of these products are fully stand alone, and I would argue they are both designed to be used as complete substitutes for at least the three 5e core rulebooks. In both cases, I think the intended use case is to adopt either ToV or A5e in total and then add back in WotC or other 5e material (especially adventures). But Shea is certainly right that you can pick and choose pieces to work into your existing games.
Which brings me to the purpose of this post--to try to compare the two games, in order to give a roadmap to 5e DMs who are open to adding in this material in whole or part into their games. Both games are, at least in their full forms, substantial investments. Both also provide a large amount of material to try to wade through. Finally, while both games are similar in the sense that they are based on 5e, they provide a fairly distinct philosophy and approach, so a 5e DM may easily find that one or the other is not in line with what they are looking for.
One last introductory comment. Because these games both have 5e under the hood, there are some "5e-isms" that cannot be changed without breaking compatibility. So, if you don't like the underlying math of 5e in terms of how die roll bonuses increase as you level up ("bounded accuracy") or the triple digit HP for medium to high level monsters or the basic class progression paradigm, neither of these games are going to be the solution you are looking for. Those elements (whether they are "problems" is in the eye of the beholder--I think they are, but obviously lots of people disagree) are baked into the core of what 5e is, and they can't be changed without the game becoming something else.
Complexity Level: As the name implies, Advanced 5e is self-consciously a more mechanically complex version of 5e. In the broadest terms, it takes what is present in 5e and adds additional mechanical systems on top--for travel, for social encounters, for more nuanced skill use, for combat maneuvers. There are some elements that replace existing 5e components, but it is mostly an additive process. If you were to run all of A5e, you would end up with a meaningfully more complex game than 5e.
By contrast, ToV is if anything an attempt to slightly simplify 5e. Mostly, this comes in terms of standardization and cleaning up some terminology issues. Many of the systems in 5e that are not explained well (Stealth and Hiding is a good example) are explained far better in ToV, but ultimately it is the same system. This is not to say the ToV is a "rules light" game, and it ends up being more or less in line with baseline 5e. But if you are looking for a 5e substitute, ToV is going to be less complex than A5e, while A5e is more mechanically robust.
New Dice Mechanics: ToV replaces Inspiration with a Luck point mechanic. When PCs fail attack rolls or saves, they gain a Luck point; in addition, the GM can award Luck points for "good role playing" and clever play. A Luck point can be spent on a one-for-one basis to bump a check, or three points can be spent to re-roll a check. To prevent players from hoarding Luck points, if the a PC accumulates more than 5 Luck Points, a random number of them will be deducted (which is sort of clunky, but I get why they do it).
A5e adds the Expertise Dice, which works sort of like Bardic Inspiration but is added to checks via class abilities, and scales up as class levels go up. Because of the way the Expertise Die is tied into the rebuilt A5e classes and/or some of the combat changes, it is far less modular than ToV's Luck point mechanic.
Three Pillars of Play: Probably the biggest selling point for A5e is the increased support for the non-combat elements of play. I particularly like the exploration challenge rules, which set up mechanical systems for overcoming terrain or situational obstacles, complete with XP rewards. Daggerheart has a similar system, and it is one of the best parts of that game, so having this sort of thing in 5e really fills out the game play. While these exploration challenges are deeply tied into the class design, they are still something you can lift out into other 5e games. Similarly, there are stronghold and follower rules that can easily be lifted into other 5e games.
ToV has reworked the downtime activities, and they are much better and more flavorful than the base 5e versions in the DMG (as does A5e to some extent, but not as much as ToV). Otherwise, ToV doesn't do much more with exploration or social than 5e. It is worth mentioning that a ToV gamemaster guide is due in September, and based on some previews it seems like there is going to be this sort of material in that book. But, for now, if you are looking for more material to fill out the other pillars of play A5e is clearly the place to go.
Class Design: Both games rebuild all of the classes that are listed in the 5e PHB. ToV standardizes the progression of "subclasses" (now a standard term--A5e calls them archetypes) across all classes, which are selected at level 3. A5e adds travel and social-oriented class abilities for every class, which often interact directly with other mechanical systems found in A5e. In both cases, mostly because of OGL-related rights issues, the books provide a new suite of subclasses/archetypes for each class. ToV's subclasses are in general pretty similar to the ones found in the 5e PHB, while A5e's are more divergent and, to me, a bit more interesting. ToV adds a "Mechanist" class, which is another take on the Artificer, while A5e adds a "Marshal" class which is clearly inspired by the 4e Warlord (and A5e also has an Artificer, but not in the core books). As a heads-up, A5e renames some of the core classes (Monk is now "Adept," Paladin is now "Herald," Barbarian is now "Berserker") which I still think is more confusing than helpful. In addition, the A5e Ranger is no longer a spellcaster (though there is an archetype that adds it back in).
Both games state that you can mix and match the classes from 5e with the classes present in their games. But ToV states up front in their conversion guide that their classes are more powerful on the whole in combat than 5e classes. Similarly, the fact that A5e classes provide access to combat maneuvers (see below) makes the martial classes more powerful than there 5e versions. In addition, the 5e classes will be significantly less competent in travel and social situations than the A5e versions, as they lack the specific class abilities that work in those domains. From my perspective, the class piece in both games is both the most interesting part and the least able to be incorporated into 5e, which is why I am of the view that both games are designed to be used as a whole.
"Origins": A5e calls the elements of character creation that don't involve the class piece "origins," and that's a handy umbrella term. Both games divide what 5e calls "race" into what you might think of as the "genetic" component (what sort of being the PC is) and the "cultural" component. ToV calls the "genetic" component "Lineage" and the cultural component "Heritage," while A5e calls the genetic component "Heritage" and the cultural component, well, "Culture." In both cases, Ability scores bonuses are decoupled from either of the two categories--ToV simply lets the player assign the bonuses however they wish or bakes the normal +2/+1 bonuses into the standard array, while A5e attaches the bonuses to Background. For what it is worth both work fine, but if we have agreed that we don't want to tie numerical bonuses to some particular genetic element, I think you might as well do what ToV does just make them floating modifiers. A5e provides for Heritage abilities that come on line at higher levels. As mentioned, A5e Backgrounds tack on the Ability Score bonuses, while ToV Backgrounds provide every character with a Talent, the ToV equivalent of a Feat (one of the reasons ToV characters are more powerful--everyone gets one at 1st level).
In addition, A5e adds the concept of an "Destiny," which is both a global motivation for adventuring as well as mechanism by which the character gains Inspiration. ToV Backgrounds also add an "adventuring motivation," which replaces the Traits/Flaws/Bonds concept from 5e.
ToV's "Origin" components are fairly easy to port over to 5e games--just remember to add your floating bonuses at the end and you are good to go. Keep in mind that ToV Backgrounds give everyone a Feat-equivalent, making them much more powerful and relevant than 5e Backgrounds. A5e requires a little bit more work, because different pieces of what 5e includes under "race" are scattered among the components. Maybe you don't care, but if you have players who want to make sure they are getting everything they got in 5e, you may need to fill in some holes if you mix and match components.
Combat: In general, the combat rules in both games are the same as 5e. A5e adds new tactical elements, including core flanking rules and new core combat actions. The big change A5e adds is a very extensive set of combat maneuver rules. There are a set of maneuvers that everyone can do, but martial characters have access to one or more Combat Traditions, which in turn give access to a suite of bespoke maneuvers powered by a pool of "exertion points." Weapons also have a bunch of new weapon properties.
ToV ties combat maneuvers into weapons, with each weapon providing a particular sort of maneuver that it can do. You can choose to do the maneuver instead of inflicting damage, and some martial classes have a feature which allows them to spend a bonus action to do the maneuver in addition to the normal attack. To be honest, I like ToV's version of combat maneuvers more than A5e's, mostly because of its simplicity, and the way it makes weapon choices meaningful. I have not really found any combat maneuver systems where the "juice" of more options is worth the "squeeze" of more complexity and the slow down of balancing the options. That is definitely a YMMV situation, but that's where I come down. In addition, I would point out that the ToV system is far more modular that A5e's combat maneuver system, which is deeply integrated into the class design.
Spellcasting: ToV makes four relatively minor but smart changes to the 5e spellcasting rules. First, "spell level" is remained "spell circle," which is a tremendous change because the distinction between "character level" and "spell level" has confused literally every person I have introduced D&D to. Second, they ditch the idea of class-specific spell lists in favor of four unified lists--Arcane, Divine, Primordial, and Wyrd. Third, long casting time, out of combat spells are designated as rituals and are learned separately from the the other spells (similar to 4e's handling of those types of spells). Finally, the ToV Warlock ditches its bespoke spell slot system (i.e. fewer slots that refresh on a short rest) in favor of making them half casters a la the Paladin and Ranger. All smart.
A5e also changes up the Warlock, using the optional spell point system from the 5e DMG for the Warlock alone, which is a bit of a strange choice. But the real meat of A5e is found in the spells themselves, many of which are reworked. More specifically, A5e nerfs many of the more notoriously problem spells in 5e. For example, A5e Fireball does 6d6 as opposed to 8d6 damage using the base 3rd level slot, while Counterspell cannot dispel a spell of a level higher than the slot used, and even if Counterspell works the caster can still get off a lower level spell as a consolation prize. On the flip side, a number of spells that don't have higher level casting options in 5e do in A5e, making the spells more flexible. Finally, A5e introduces the concept of rare, "named" versions of spells, that are upgrades that can be given as treasure (a great idea, and one that can easily be ported in to other 5e-based games).
A couple of commentators have lamented that ToV didn't do what A5e did to the spells, and I agree that this was a bit of a missed opportunity. But I don't see any reason why you couldn't use A5e's spells in either 5e or ToV.
Monsters: Both ToV and A5e provide a full monster book that rebuilds all of the common D&D monsters--humanoids, dragons, giants, undead, etc. I have not done a comprehensive survey of each monster in both books as compared to the 5e versions, but there are some pretty clear trends.
ToV, and the designers are very explicit about this, buffs up all of the monsters from their 5e versions. Kobold Press's previous monster books are well known for having monsters that were somewhere between meaningfully and significantly tougher than 5e monsters with equivalent CR, and the ToV monsters are designed to be at the same level as the other Kobold Press books. To take an example, the ToV troll has 10 more HP than the 5e troll, buffs bite damage from 1d6+4 to 2d8+4, and adds a bonus action that lets wounded trolls make a free bite attack and heal the damage it inflicts. Likewise, the Wight goes from 45 to 69 HP, and all of its attacks do double the damage of the 5e version. There are some interesting mechanics added to some of the monsters (I particularly like the ToV giants), but most of what ToV does to its monsters involves making the numbers bigger.
A5e approaches its monsters in a different way. There are some numeric buffs (sticking with the troll, there is a slight damage buff on the bite attack), but the primary changes revolve around adding more interesting special attacks and abilities. For example, the A5e troll has a "severed limbs" ability, such that when the troll is attacked with slashing weapons creates a series of limbs that make additional attacks, while the Wight has a cold aura and a grapple attack that triggers the life drain attack. In doing so, A5e monsters are similar to the "action-oriented" monsters that MCDM put forward in their Flee Mortals! book, which in turn is clearly and transparently inspired by 4e's monster design ethos. It is also worth noting that the A5e monsters also include built-in results for PC knowledge rolls, random behavior from the monster, and pre-created encounters using the monster--all very useful, and could be used even if you don't use the stat block.
Putting it together, if you are a DM that thinks that 5e monsters are weak, then ToV is the place to go to fix that; if you think 5e monsters are boring when running them, then A5e is going to be the place to go (or, also Flee Mortals!). Truthfully, the monster piece is by far the most modular part of either of the game, so this might be the easiest and best way to dip your toe into these product lines.
Just as an aside, both ToV and A5e have monsters with spell lists, which is no longer the design paradigm with 5e. YMMV.





